Neophilia

[John Scott]

I don't know how people can stay married to the same person for years or even decades on end. I want a different body every week. If I had blond last week, I want brunette this week.

Not proud of it, but I don't see how anybody could not be a neophile.

[kerrin]

I guess your thinking has changed since you wrote the following on your blog (http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2008/02/08/scandal-by-endo-shusaku/#comment-517):

Years ago, I was in a hotel room with an extremely beautiful young girl who thought that I was the best thing since sliced bread.

I was, however, married. True, I didn’t get along with my wife. But at that moment I felt more evil than any other time in my life. So evil that I broke off and left the room without finishing the deed. If you’re any bit male, you know how hard that is, and might get an idea of the overwhelming evilness I felt.

...We do things that have no victims, like cheating on a wife. If she doesn’t know, she isn’t hurt, and it’s a victimless crime.

I'm curious what changed your perception of 'evil'?
Or did you get divorced and no longer have the dilemma of "victimless crimes" with neophilia?

If the answers to those questions are too personal for this forum just say so and I'll understand.

[kerrin]

...I don't see how anybody could not be a neophile.
Some may find comfort in status quo. There are plenty of people who reject 'the new' in favor of 'the familiar.' I would think, generally, one would stick with 'the familiar' because of the emotional comfort it brings and fear of the concequences of something 'new.'

[m42]

Not proud of it, but I don't see how anybody could not be a neophile.

Why judge yourself? Life is short. You aren't here to please everyone.

[John Scott]

Or did you get divorced and no longer have the dilemma of "victimless crimes" with neophilia?

Yes, divorced.

Funny how, until you reminded me, I was under the impression that I was always a neophile.

It it amazing how much I changed. How much people in general change. My entire identity used to be wrapped up in my kids. They were everything. After the divorce, and an extremely painful 6 months or so, I gradually stopped identifying myself as "father".

I liked being a father, but to remain in that mental state without children is very dangerous, emotionally.

[kerrin]

Thanks for sharing something so personal. Since your last writings on your blog I have often wondered if there was some difficult life situation going on and the last comments you left worried me slightly.

Anyway, I am truly sorry to hear of your painful experience. Though, it sounds like you have grown personally as a result—The NET of dealing with painful experiences is often personal growth. We (humans) tend to learn more from failures then successes, well, at least I do.

It sounds as though your kids were taken away against your wishes, is that true? If so was it because of your past legal trouble?

I liked being a father, but to remain in that mental state without children is very dangerous, emotionally.
I can identify with this, well, not the part about lossing children, but the reason for changing a mental state because of the emotional dangers. Looking back do you find you become less and less emotional in life as a result of changing a mental state? I have found that is the case for me. Sorry perhaps to much psychoanalysis.

[John Scott]

It sounds as though your kids were taken away against your wishes, is that true? If so was it because of your past legal trouble?


Yes. If you are convicted of a violent crime - even if it is 20 years ago - you won't be successful in getting custody of your children.

It was classic. My ex wife got out of jail domestic violence - stabbing me several times in the chest - and immediately went to court and successfully got custody of the children. When asked in court if I had ever abused her or the children, she responded honestly and denied that I had ever abused her or the children. But her attorney added that I was a convicted killer, at which point the judge gave a DV convict my children, and imposed a 10 year no contact order on me.

Very difficult situation, and at the time I believed that I wouldn't survive it. It was just a matter of choosing which building to jump off of.

But time went on, and I healed. My ex got nicer, grew and matured, and now we have a very friendly relationship. We talk once or twice a week, and the kids call me often.

Looking back do you find you become less and less emotional in life as a result of changing a mental state?

Definitely. I think I became more guarded, less inclined to become emotionally attached to anything.

[kerrin]

Your honesty is refreshing. Again, thanks for sharing. I'm beginning to feel bad because I kind of hijacked your thread on neophilia. We can take this discussion 'off thread' anytime you wish.

...stabbing me several times in the chest...
Okay. This is "classic" as you say, something out of an after-school-made-for-tv special. But so much more serious and hard to imagine actually happening.

Can I ask what you did to provoke the stabbing? (Something I want to avoid in life—not provoking a woman to stab me would be great) Or was it unprovoked?

Very difficult situation, and at the time I believed that I wouldn't survive it.
Well this would seem natural... I can't imagine dealing with that, I can only hope I would survive.

But time went on, and I healed. My ex got nicer, grew and matured, and now we have a very friendly relationship. We talk once or twice a week, and the kids call me often.
Ah, a resolution. Well I certainly would not wish this on anyone. Again, I am sorry that you had to go through all of that.

I appreciate this "cyber-friendship" we have. I do care for you as an individual—I know that probably sounds strange—it may be because I have felt connected to you, your thoughts, and your honesty. I think we are similar in some ways... maybe, how we process the world around us...

I think I became more guarded, less inclined to become emotionally attached to anything.
Ditto. For me the 'jury is out' on if this is a good thing or not. It seems to be something I can't stop... I increasingly approach life situations rationally instead of emotionally, but I'm not a modern day stoic. I find some value to emotions.

[John Scott]

Can I ask what you did to provoke the stabbing?

Honesty. ;)

I told her I was not in love with her and wanted a friendly divorce.

She agreed, but then came back with a huge kitchen knife.

The fact the police arrested her was really the most disturbing thing. They should mind their own business. If the "victim" doesn't want to press charges, they should not press charges.

[kerrin]

Honesty.
I told her I was not in love with her and wanted a friendly divorce.
She agreed, but then came back with a huge kitchen knife.
Well, I'm glad you survived. Next time make a call, write a letter, or send a text message, maybe?

The fact the police arrested her was really the most disturbing thing. They should mind their own business. If the "victim" doesn't want to press charges, they should not press charges.
That is disturbing. How, did they find out? Are domestic violence laws different in Japan?

BTW: What did you think of my response to someone not being a neophile above?

[m42]

Next time make a call, write a letter, or send a text message, maybe?

Or convert to Islam and send three texts. *snicker*

If he gets married again I'm totally chucking the supportive routine. I may actually have to fly to Japan and beat the crap out of him. ;)

[kerrin]

If he gets married again I may have to fly to Japan and beat the crap out of him
You are a true friend.

Look out for the Japanese police, they don't sound predisposed to a friendly beat-down.

[m42]

Average height of a Japanese male: 171.2 cm (5' 7.4")
My height: 172.3 cm (5'7.8")

*nya* *nya* *flex*

You do realize I'm joking, right? ;)

[kerrin]

You do realize I'm joking, right?
Of course, I'm just not as good with the emoticons as you.

[m42]

Of course, I'm just not as good with the emoticons as you.

Nervous tick. *twitch*

[kerrin]

Nervous tick. *twitch*

That and your 0.2" should scare them off. Fighting may not be necessary.

[John Scott]

That is disturbing. How, did they find out? Are domestic violence laws different in Japan?

It happened in the US. And I called the police. She would get crazy and homicidal/suicidal every once in a while, and the police would take her to the funny farm, and she'd be happy for a while. Personally, I think she was just on too many meds (Prozac, etc). But that time they arrested her instead.

BTW: What did you think of my response to someone not being a neophile above?

Fear of change, right? It's still fear, and that can't be a good way to live one's life. Probably an accurate observation, though.

[kerrin]

Fear of change, right? It's still fear, and that can't be a good way to live one's life. Probably an accurate observation, though.
Yes. Well, that and attachment to the emotional comfort derived from the familiar. Although, that seems to be more of a female tendency these days. I think some people find the familiar enjoyable because they enjoy the comfort it brings.

On the other hand fear is not always a bad thing. Fear can protect one from something harmful, or be an indication of something dangerous to avoid.

Naturalism would say nature intended this attachment to preserve the species. Through natural selection the species survived in its environment when partners stayed together and the species offspring also survived when the partners stayed together.

A Social Darwinist would say the same thing only it was a result of natural selection within society that the partners stayed together and therefore survived within their society.

If you like the naturalist perspective you may be free to not judge yourself as Alex suggested. Geneticist, Steve Jones in his book Y: The Descent of Men, suggests that men were a temporary necessity of the evolution process (a summary of his thoughts (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article4894696.ece)). Steve Jones for you consideration:

[Man's] sole task is to fecundate his spouse, but quite why he does it remains a mystery. To divide is more efficient than to unite, and everyone has a history of a single sexual event when sperm met egg, followed by billions of cell divisions without its benefit. Untold numbers of species manage without even that masculine moment and for most of the time do not seem to mourn its absence.

I do find it ironic that a Naturalist discovers "a mystery," I thought they could explain everything through Naturalism! Anyway, the article about a virgin shark becoming pregnant (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081010/ap_on_sc/sci_shark_mystery) may actually confirm that the male is no longer necessary within the evolutionary process.

If this is so you should feel free to be a Neophile—you might be at the end of the evolutionary process. ;)

I'm not a Naturalist nor a Social Darwinist, just offering different perspectives for your consideration.

[John Scott]

[Man's] sole task is to fecundate his spouse, but quite why he does it remains a mystery.

The male is also better at violence that the female. Perhaps that is to provide protection for the female and the helpless newborn offspring?

[kerrin]

Perhaps that is to provide protection for the female and the helpless newborn offspring?
Absolutely, that could be and that adds to the idea I was offering when I said, "...and the species offspring also survived when the partners stayed together."

I find evolution theory valuable and useful. I only have a problem with naturalism in its use of inductive logic to draw definitive conclusions. I also don't like naturalism because of its tendency to support or lead to socialism when it is believed. What do you think?

[firetown]

I think it's in our nature to be this way, but when you're in love, things change.

[kerrin]

...when you're in love, things change.
What is "love"? And how do I get "in" the thing?

[m42]

I think it's in our nature to be this way, but when you're in love, things change.

WEDNESDAY, Oct. 15 (HealthDay News) -- Pity the lovelorn prairie vole. A new study finds that when this monogamous rodent is separated from a mate, its brain starts a process that ends in lovesickness.

The same mechanism might drive the feelings humans get when parted from a longtime mate, scientists say.

And it could also keep couples together -- even when it's not good for them.

http://health.msn.com/health-topics/depression/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100218156&GT1=31009

[firetown]

What is "love"? And how do I get "in" the thing?

it happens if it happens

[kerrin]

But the day when humans can take a pill to help forget a love affair gone bad is still far off...
Wow, that'll be something. A pill to forget stuff...I could see a whole line of Forget About [fill-in-blank] Pills—the marketing would be fun for that!

Those findings do seem to support the Naturalististc view I put forward earlier (http://www.individualism.com/community/showthread.php?t=91&page=2#post592).

Found this on wikipedia:
The prairie vole is a notable animal model for studying monogamous behavior and social bonding because male and female partners form life-long pair bonds, huddle and groom each other, share nesting and pup-raising responsibilities, and generally show a high level of affiliative behavior.
They sound oh, so cute. But then I read this:
However, they are not sexually faithful, and though pair-bonded females usually show aggression toward unfamiliar males, both sexes will occasionally mate with other voles if the opportunity arises.
Hmmm..."Opportunity arises," they sound like Laissez-faire free-market advocates.

[firetown]

I have never experienced jealousy as I have in Costa Rica.
If a girl is in love with you, breaking up can have serious consequences.
Guys here are very non confrontational. People don't divorce easily, they just have someone (plural) on the side.
Women here would rather have you cheat on them than leave them. They get over that. If you leave a girl who loves you completely, chances are you will be confronted with some serious stuff.
Love will turn into hatred and once hatred kicks in, you need to protect yourself not just from her, but her family and whoever she may decide to call in order to help her get back at you.

[m42]

Women here would rather have you cheat on them than leave them. They get over that.

That's a crock of shit. No woman really gets over that. Of course, I may be more bitter than most. The man I am dating cheated on me with multiple women two weeks ago.


Love will turn into hatred and once hatred kicks in, you need to protect yourself not just from her, but her family and whoever she may decide to call in order to help her get back at you.

That's just psychotic and wrong.

Edit: Of course, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSG4Cml7HXs)

[kerrin]

That's a crock of shit. No woman really gets over that. Of course, I may be more bitter than most. The man I am dating cheated on me with multiple women two weeks ago.
I would have to agree and I am not bitter or a woman, last I checked anyway.

Really, that sucks! Did you give him the what for? Men are scum, I know this first hand. Not the cheating part just that men have a natural tendency to overlook the emotional effect their desire for satisfaction has on others.

[m42]

Did you give him the what for? Men are scum, I know this first hand. Not the cheating part just that men have a natural tendency to overlook the emotional effect their desire for satisfaction has on others.

I didn't need to ask why he did it. I'm attracted to men who are more strong willed and rebellious than I am. They all share a commonality, high testosterone.

I knew it was a distinct possibility when I started dating him.

There are obviously people who are well suited for neophilia, and some who are not.

I am not.

[Anenome]

Really, that sucks! Did you give him the what for? Men are scum, I know this first hand. Not the cheating part just that men have a natural tendency to overlook the emotional effect their desire for satisfaction has on others.

Come, come, let's take women off the pedestal as well, they're no angels either :P As a counter to yours we could say that women have a tendency to treat men as if they had no emotions :P

As for me I'll probably never be married, though I 'date' for fun right now, nothing serious while I finish up school.

[firetown]

That's just psychotic and wrong.
[/URL]

ou're preaching to the choire

[m42]

Come, come, let's take women off the pedestal as well, they're no angels either :P As a counter to yours we could say that women have a tendency to treat men as if they had no emotions :P

Hmm. All gross generalizations.

Not all women claim to be angels.

The "no emotions" statement is a load of bullsh!t. ;)

[firetown]

Hmm. All gross generalizations.

Not all women claim to be angels.

The "no emotions" statement is a load of bullsh!t. ;)

I told girls I had 2 gfs elsewhere and they still wanted to be with me, so to me women are just as bad as men.

[m42]

I told girls I had 2 gfs elsewhere and they still wanted to be with me, so to me women are just as bad as men.

That is a fair statement.

[Anenome]

Hmm. All gross generalizations.

Not all women claim to be angels.

The "no emotions" statement is a load of bullsh!t. ;)

Yep ;P
Hmm, 10 character minimum on posts, that's a new one.

[Anenome]

I told girls I had 2 gfs elsewhere and they still wanted to be with me, so to me women are just as bad as men.

That's not so bad. I know a guy who, during the weekend, will setup a date with 2 to 5 women, depending how many he met that he liked that weekend. Now the funny thing is that he sets them up for the same day and time, like he'll meet them all in some restaurant bar or something. They'll get there one by one and he'll introduce them to each other, and they realize what's going on that they're not the only girl going on tonight's date <.<;;; But they usually stick around and go have fun with him anyway ^_^ It's almost impossible to get stood-up that way, but it takes some balls to pull off :P

[m42]

Yep ;P
Hmm, 10 character minimum on posts, that's a new one.

It's a vBulletin default. A fix is on the forum owner's list of todos.

[kerrin]

Come, come, let's take women off the pedestal as well, they're no angels either :P As a counter to yours we could say that women have a tendency to treat men as if they had no emotions :P
I was denigrating men not putting women on a pedestal. I was seeking, in the best way I knew possible, to be understanding, supportive, and even slightly empathic...perhaps a poor attempt. I'll accept that.

The women I'm interested in must be on a pedestal...otherwise why would I enjoy being with them (and by this I don't mean sexually)?

[Anenome]

I was denigrating men not putting women on a pedestal. I was seeking, in the best way I knew possible, to be understanding, supportive, and even slightly empathic...perhaps a poor attempt. I'll accept that.

The women I'm interested in must be on a pedestal...otherwise why would I enjoy being with them (and by this I don't mean sexually)?

- Haha, well, we definitely have very different views of what to do with pedestals when it comes to women ;P I am fond of saying that every guy needs his heart broken once so he can take women off the pedestal permanently ;P Just be equals, imo :) No need to worship her or walk on eggshells, or make her the center. In fact, I've seen men try to make a particular woman their aim in life, he exists to please her. It doesn't usually work out. Women would rather join in the life of a guy who has goals rather than become his life. Not to imply speaking for women, but simply my own observations :) Help me out here, M42 >.>

[m42]

- Haha, well, we definitely have very different views of what to do with pedestals when it comes to women ;P I am fond of saying that every guy needs his heart broken once so he can take women off the pedestal permanently ;P Just be equals, imo :) No need to worship her or walk on eggshells, or make her the center. In fact, I've seen men try to make a particular woman their aim in life, he exists to please her. It doesn't usually work out. Women would rather join in the life of a guy who has goals rather than become his life. Not to imply speaking for women, but simply my own observations :) Help me out here, M42 >.>

I'd say that depends on the woman. Other than that, I have NO idea. ;)

[kerrin]

- Haha, well, we definitely have very different views of what to do with pedestals when it comes to women ;P I am fond of saying that every guy needs his heart broken once so he can take women off the pedestal permanently ;P Just be equals, imo :) No need to worship her or walk on eggshells, or make her the center. In fact, I've seen men try to make a particular woman their aim in life, he exists to please her. It doesn't usually work out. Women would rather join in the life of a guy who has goals rather than become his life. Not to imply speaking for women, but simply my own observations :) Help me out here, M42 >.>
I'm looking at this as more of an esteem, respect, or admiration of a women. I'm not talking of 'worship' of or existing to please them, but perhaps that is what you mean by "pedestals."

Succinctly put those whom I enjoy the company of are those for whom I have respect and esteem. This may not be what you refer to as a "pedestal." Whatever...

[Anenome]

I'm looking at this as more of an esteem, respect, or admiration of a women. I'm not talking of 'worship' of or existing to please them, but perhaps that is what you mean by "pedestals."

Succinctly put those whom I enjoy the company of are those for whom I have respect and esteem. This may not be what you refer to as a "pedestal." Whatever...

Mmm, well let me put it this way. People in general, not just women, get a certain amount of respect as a stranger. From there their stock may rise or fall depending on their actions in relation to me. By pedestal I mean accruing undeserved levels of respect up-front and continuing despite actions.

[kerrin]

Mmm, well let me put it this way. People in general, not just women, get a certain amount of respect as a stranger. From there their stock may rise or fall depending on their actions in relation to me. By pedestal I mean accruing undeserved levels of respect up-front and continuing despite actions.
I guess we had a different perspective of 'pedestal'. Trust is earned, no doubt.